Comments on: Myths of Education: Bottom Students Are Not Hardworking, Motivated, or Bright (Part I of III)

By: Leah R.

Leah R. — Tue, 17 Feb 2009 02:51:13 +0000

This article hits the nail on the head with its acknowledgment that a child’s best learning is not only self-motivated, but self-directed. I am wondering, Christine, if you have read John Holt’s work, particularly “Learning All the Time” or “How Children Fail”? While your focus is primarily on teens, his observations of middle school children clearly match yours. And if you haven’t already seen it, Sir Ken Robinson’s TED.com talk on how schools kill creativity is worth watching, both for its message and its humor. Thank you for this well-worded piece of myth-busting.

By: KevinT

KevinT — Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:47:40 +0000

Thanks. Will do.

By: Christine Duvivier

Christine Duvivier — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 18:25:07 +0000

PS Kevin — if you have further interest, you might want to take a look at my presentation and paper which give a bit more on these topics: http://www.positiveleaders.com/studyresults.html
Christine

By: Christine Duvivier

Christine Duvivier — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 18:22:32 +0000

Dear Kevin,
Thank you for your added insights! Clearly there is a great deal that we agree on — including the idea that many students are well-served by many aspects of school — and by the dedicated, caring educators who do their very best (all of my work has emphasized that the issues are systemic and not a “flaw or fault” with educators).

In a short comment, it isn’t always easy to clarify, but I’ll try briefly. I believe we can transform the education experience for all students and transcend some of the systemic issues that exist. Also, when I say broadly that students in the bottom 80% are self-disciplined, motivated, intelligent, capable of learning and/or hardworking I am referring to the situations where that is the case– which is not always in a school setting. In my study, I explain — based on George Vaillant’s adaptation model and other researchers’ work– that kids use a healthy strategy to protect their inner core. Unfortunately, that may include immature coping mechanisms — acting out, not studying etc.
Thanks for your comments!
Christien

By: Christine Duvivier

Christine Duvivier — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 18:10:39 +0000

Dear Joan,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful comments. I agree with you (and Kathryn) on mindset– that is, helping kids to know that they can learn, rather than broad praise about a perceived trait “smart, quick, etc.” I think the work you are doing in helping kids draw on their own resources to meet and transcend challenges is wonderful!

My thoughts on hardwork probably differ from some: when kids work hard at something they want to learn/do, that is fantastic. I do not believe that asking them to work hard on fitting themselves into what others have decided are the “best molds” for students is ultimately what we want education to do. But for now we have to do whatever we can to help them find their own self-efficacy, strengths and gifts.

It’s wonderful to know that people like you are out there helping them!
Best,
Christine

By: Kathryn Britton

Kathryn Britton — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:11:16 +0000

It comes back to Carol Dweck’s mindsets, doesn’t it.

The fixed mindset is the one in use when kids say “I’m not good at that,” — as if there were a fixed set of abilities that they are discovering, rather than a variable set that they are building.

Joan, I think you are describing giving process praise instead of person praise — a skill I wish I had learned BEFORE I had children. http://theanocoaching.wordpress.com/2007/10/23/process-praise-and-growth-mindsets/

Dweck and colleagues found that children that receive process praise are more willing to try challenging tasks and less affected by failure than those receiving “You are so smart” praise.

Kathryn

By: Joan Young

Joan Young — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:12:55 +0000

As I read back over the comments posted, I wanted to add that it’s very important when we pursue the line of thinking that “kids don’t put forth the effort” that it could be that sometime during their education they have not been supported in the belief that effort is what matters and that things that are worthwhile usually don’t come without sweat and tears. I work with many students as a tutor/coach and I hear their “self talk” as they battle with academic subjects that are challenging for them. They say, “I’m not good at that” and they don’t necessarily believe that they can change it! I think that we need to begin earlier with kids, not calling them “smart” or “gifted” when they achieve, but praising hard work and effort and the occasions when they muddle through and make progress on a challenging task.

By: Joan Young

Joan Young — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 05:50:48 +0000

Thank you so much for this article. I hear these myths perpetuated by both teachers and parents. My goal as a teacher and parent educator is to help reframe the messages we give kids: we need to emphasize hard work and commitment while helping kids find the strengths to utilize in all areas.

By: KevinT

KevinT — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:43:53 +0000

Christine:
Thanks for your kind note.
Perhaps where we depart agreement has only to do with the size of the cohort. I surely agree with you that some students–whether under or over or average achievers– are not well served by public schools. I also agree that some under performerswork hard and have discipline. Where we depart company is your suggestion that all underperformers are, in fact, exercising self discipline and are motivated and hard working. That is inconsistent with my life experiences and empirical observation. Moreover, some students are not well served by their schools because they do not, in fact, put in the effort. Not everyone needs all that is taught for a fruitful and fulfilling life, but, overall, most of what is taught is essential for thriving in mainstream society. Of course, some choose to reject the mainstream…

By: Christine Duvivier

Christine Duvivier — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:05:29 +0000

Dear Kevin, As someone who personally loves school, I can relate to your point about and agree that there are many high-academic-achievers who thrive. Thank you for clarifying that.

And thank you for raising the point that we don’t want to simply accept “acting out” behaviors such as drugs, alcohol, or “tuning-out” of life. I agree that it’s crucial to help all teens find ways to engage. Where you and I may not agree is this: I think that school as we do it today (in many cases) is not well-suited to eliciting the gifts and strengths that will serve teens for life.

If we keep in mind that the root of “discipline” is “to teach” or “to learn,” then self-discipline is self-teaching or self-learning. Although I didn’t use this term, in keeping with this definition I found that kids in the bottom 80% are self-disciplined.

Thanks for your comments,
Christine